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The Cognitive Dissonance of Raid Finder

December 11, 2011

Raid nights are a bit ceremonial for me anymore.  Our Thursday and Sunday nights progression runs start at 8 p.m. my time, so I usually start preparing an hour or so beforehand.  I finish up dinner, do the dishes, and make myself some tea so that I can wind down before I hop in front of the computer.  On my second cup of tea, I log into WoW and bring up a couple of browser tabs with blogs and other strategy guides for the encounter we’re working on that night.  I check my druid’s potion supply, repair status, reforging.  I keep my upgrade list nearby and check to see if I’m likely to need gems or enchants and should bring those along with me.  Finally, at about quarter-til, our raid leader starts to send out invites and we all sign into vent and begin to chat.

It’s a process that’s been more or less the same for me since the first time I stepped into a raid instance a few months after the launch of Wrath.  It’s deliberate and time consuming, but I enjoy it because it gets me into the mindset I want for progression.  It forces me to slow down and look at the details of everything I’m doing.  It’s a process that is now as essential to my raiding experience as the actual raid itself, and because of that it feels directly connected to my contributions to the success of our group that night.

It’s a process that has absolutely nothing in common with the way that Raid Finder works.

Raid Finder is all about convenience, and it is amazingly convenient.  The queue times are shockingly reasonable regardless of what role you play.  I find myself in a situation where all 3 of my level 85 healers have been capped on Valor Points for the past 2 weeks, and I wasn’t even particularly trying to do so.  Of those 3 healers, 2 have completed the final boss of this expansion.  I don’t think I brought an alt healer along to a Lich King fight until the last month of Wrath.  It’s a bizarre feeling.

And yet … the Raid Finder has so little in common with any kind of raid I’ve ever taken part in.  Beru had a good write up about this a few days ago as well.  She’s right, that no (successful) raid teams out there pull bosses without explaining the strategy first, or at the very least assigning roles.  She’s also right that the transiency we see in Raid Finder is not something that happens in traditional raid teams.  If we’re working on a progression fight and a member of our team has to leave early, we often call it for the night.  Every once in a rare while we may try to find a substitute to bring in, but generally we like to get the kill for the person who’s been working on the encounter all along and we also don’t find it very effective to have to start the learning process over again.  Raid Finder just boggles my mind because the team itself changes constantly over the course of 4 bosses, and no one ever stops or bats an eye.  A healer’s gone … keep pulling.  A tank’s gone … we still have the other, keep pulling.  DPS are gone … there’s not even a second thought, keep pulling.  Some groups might wait to have a full 25 before pulling a boss, but from what I’ve seen those are in the minority.

Beru is completely right about everything that separates the experience of Raid Finder from that of a traditional raid.  Yet what I cannot fail to overlook is that, despite all of this, Raid Finder succeeds the vast majority of the time.  Of all the Raid Finder runs I’ve done in the last two weeks, only one failed to complete all 4 bosses – and that was only because the instance server restarted and broke up the group.  Raid Finder groups do everything that would destroy a traditional raid team, and they still manage to kill bosses.

Now here’s where I’m really torn.

I love the idea of getting more people to see more content.  It’s an fundamental principle of my guild, and it’s THE reason I got interested in raiding in the first place.  I didn’t allow myself to be dragged into Naxx because I wanted better gear or more achievements – I did so because I wanted to see how the story ended, and because I wanted to know what raiding was like.  I do think there’s a problem when players  cannot follow an expansion’s story through to completion merely because they are not in a raid group capable of downing a final boss.  Yes, there’s a fountain in Dalaran or a giant jaw hanging in Stormwind that will show you the end of the story if you ask.  But we all know that’s not the full story.  It’s not the full experience.  It’s a consolation prize.

But is Raid Finder a good answer to this problem?  I’m just not sure.

Raid Finder surely satisfies the desire to see how Deathwing’s story ends.  Plenty of threads like these have popped up on the official forums from players who are overjoyed to finally get a chance to experience content in a way that was totally inaccessible to them before.  That’s fantastic.  I think it’s great for people to have a chance to really live WoW’s story in a way that could only be done by serious raid groups before.  (I’ll admit, I’m still a bit ticked that I’ll probably never see how exactly we defeat Ragnaros since my guild is highly unlikely to ever tackle him on heroic.)

Does Raid Finder give people a good sense of what raiding is like?  Absolutely not.  In fact, some part of me is worried about the effect Raid Finder will have on my guild’s recruitment from here on out, because I worry that our less experienced applicants may assume that raiding with a guild is like what they’ve done on Raid Finder.  Tolerance for wiping may shrink, respect for raid leader’s strategies and authority may be nonexistent, and the willingness to commit a full three hours to focusing on the task at hand may be an officer’s pipe dream.

On the other hand, I can’t discount Raid Finder’s usefulness as a teaching tool to at least give people exposure to a fight.  It was helpful for me to see the last 4 bosses of Dragon Soul on Raid Finder when our progression raid  had only cleared up to Ultraxion.  Doing so prepared me for what boss abilities look like, and gave me a good idea of when I would want to use my cooldowns to deal with bursts of damage.  But I learned those lessons as someone who was going into Raid Finder knowing exactly what I wanted to see to help improve my performance in my normal raid.  If you can live through most of the abilities that would one-shot you on normal (Hagara’s ice walls, Blackhorn’s shockwave), then what’s the incentive to pay enough attention to get out of the way of them when you’re in a traditional raid?  (And, of course, not everyone going into Raid Finder is doing so with the intention of completing Dragon Soul on normal difficulty at some point in the future.)

Big Bear Butt has something of a solution for this, explaining that the perceived difficulty of Raid Finder will increase as overgeared and experienced raiders naturally filter out of the system.  I think he’s probably right, as I doubt I’ll be taking my main to Raid Finder after the first month or so of this patch is over – a 1000 point valor cap is very easy to reach, and there are already only a very limited number of upgrades I can get from Raid Finder’s loot.  It is possible, then, that as time goes on and the majority of the avoidable damage on Raid Finder runs isn’t so easily healed through, strategy and precision may become more valuable than they are now.

I can’t manage to wrap my head around Raid Finder as it currently operates, though.  I love it for its ideals and I hate it for the way it plays out.  It’s like raiding in the most basic sense, and it is completely unlike raiding in so many essential ways.

The only way I’ve found to explain Raid Finder to myself in a way that doesn’t make my grey matter start to meltdown, is to use the following analogy:

Raid Finder : Traditional Raiding :: Random Battlegrounds : Premade Battlegrounds

I sometimes wonder what it must be like for a skilled group of PvPers who are used to a premade, rated battleground team to step into a random battleground.  The cesspool that is BG chat, the chaos that is BG “strategy,” the total lack of essential communication because 10-40 random strangers aren’t going to pile into someone’s vent, and the giant spread of players’ gear and skill – all of that is removed when you run with a premade group.  I’m someone who really hasn’t been fortunate to get to run with premade groups all that often; unfortunately, I just don’t have many friends in my guild who are regular PvPers.

So that means that most of my battleground experiences happen solo – I zone into an BG and hope for the best.  I ignore BG chat as much as I possibly can, and try to help with the objectives to the best of my understanding and ability.  I can only imagine how stressful and frustrating it might be for someone who is used to a different style of battleground play (one that actually involves strategies, assignments, and good communication) to be in a place that is visually and situationally familiar, but different in every other conceivable way.  Actually – I can do better than imagine.  I’m a traditional raider who has taken part in Raid Finder.

(And for those who might argue that Raid Finder is more of a “necessity” for traditional raiders than random battlegrounds are for end-game PvPers, I’d remind you to take a look at the way acquiring Conquest Points changed in 4.3.  The only remaining difference between our two systems is that PvE players are dependent upon the randomness of loot tables for our set bonuses whereas PvPers can buy everything using their currencies – and potentially take a much longer time to fully gear doing so.  Alternatively, PvPers can go kill the Baradin Hold bosses once a week to get their highest possible gear without having to spend currency on it – forcing them into a raiding situation that they may have absolutely no desire to participate in.  If we’re truly devoted to min/maxing, we often do things we don’t consider “fun” to get ahead – but that’s another post in and of itself.)

I wish I could round out this post in a way that demonstrates how I’ve seen the light and understand the necessity and importance of both types of raiding.  All I can say is … I’m getting there.  I understand why both random battlegrounds and rated/premades are necessary to give PvPers a full spectrum of ways to be challenged and develop their skillset.  I am fairly certain that Raid Finder is there to fulfill a similar purpose, and it’s Ok that accepting that means I need to revise my definition of what raiding looks like.  I can’t manage to wrap my head around Raid Finder … and maybe that’s just fine.

My raid experience will not change.  My raid group isn’t going to rage quit after our first wipe to Madness of Deathwing when we start working on it tonight.  My guild will continue to recruit players who share these ideals, and thus our preferred way of raiding will be maintained.  Who am I to say that anyone else’s preferred way of raiding is wrong or not equally valid?  Who am I to dictate how people “should” spend their time in game?  Who am I to say that what’s older was better, or to claim that anyone doesn’t deserve to see what I get to see?

22 Comments leave one →
  1. December 11, 2011 1:01 pm

    For me, it’s a wonderful thing. Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on perspective) I can no longer dedicate the time or commitment to raiding that I used to. I can’t actually believe looking back, that I used to raid six nights a week during vanilla.

    Work and study have finally caught up with me and it’s not even my own time management that’s an issue. My husband has a new job with a 130 mile round trip commute every day (we are looking to move but after Christmas). He gets home at around 8pm server time, meaning that if I joined a guild, when he comes home hungry, I’d be yelling downstairs “Your dinner is in the oven” two or three nights a week.

    The raid finder allows someone like me, who loves raiding and would time allowing happily rejoin a raiding guild the ability to see content at odd hours, when it suits me, without interfering with my study/work and personal life.

    • December 11, 2011 1:12 pm

      This is a great point, and one I failed to touch upon. My other half (a.k.a. The Pink Kitty) doesn’t get to raid as often as he used to because of his work schedule. Raid Finder has been wonderful for him because he can still get to raid, which has always been one of his favorite parts of the game. It’s also been nice because we actually get a chance to raid together when we both have the time, and that’s not something that’s always the case when it comes to traditional guild raids.

  2. December 11, 2011 1:44 pm

    Here’s what I don’t get. I understand that LFR is going to be easy. That’s probably a good thing, given the various strikes against it in terms of organization. What I don’t get is why *normals* are so relatively easy.

    I have no doubt that you guys are going to clear Deathwing tonight, knock on wood. ICC may have been gated, but even if it hadn’t, do you think we would have cleared Arthas after two weeks of the patch?

    If DS had been as difficult as Firelands, that would have been OK. My issue with FL wasn’t difficulty, it was stupid-ass game design. DS is in my opinion well designed, but we’re going to be bored with it in two months, I bet.

    • December 11, 2011 1:53 pm

      Yeah, I’m baffled by that, too. With no gating system, a shorter overall raid than ICC, and probably the same amount of time between now and Mists as there was between the release of ICC and 4.0 – I’m not sure what we’re going to do. Unless Mists is going to be released much earlier than we anticipate (and how is that possible when Diablo 3, Heart of the Swarm, and some alpha/beta for Mists still have to be released, first), then it seems like Dragon Soul is going to get very old very fast. Maybe they’ll toss us a Ruby Sanctum-style raid in a few months, and hopefully they’ll implement it a hell of a lot better than they did last expansion.

  3. December 11, 2011 2:02 pm

    I agree 100% with Tzufit and this is something that left me thinking as well. I know that there are many people that have little time to raid and can now see the content via LFR.. I know that LFR probably means no need to nerf normal level content (i.e. no Firelands nerf half-way a tier).

    However, I think that the LFR will be a very bad idea in the long run. The risk is that new raiders might “grow up” with the notion that raid bosses are basically huge loot pinatas that require no coordination and no more than a wipe to kill (am I exaggerating? join a LFR and watch yourself).

    I am not sure that the good is going to outweigh the bad… we’ll see, I guess.

    • December 11, 2011 3:30 pm

      I think we already have a bit of “huge loot pinatas that require no coordination” with the gap between normal and heroic. When I was an officer in a raiding guild, we had so many issues with trials who seemed good on paper (from their normal experiences) either failing so badly on heroic mode or not being able to cope with the concept of wiping over and over again. Yes LFR might increase the numbers of people who expect easy loot from normal/heroics but they’ve always been a part and parcel of the game.

      On the plus side, LFR allows altaholics to gear all their characters up to a semi-decent level which potentially will also benefit their guilds (I know I’ve had to bring alts to main raids for composition balance before). It allows the casual members of a guild to raid with their hardercore friends. It allows us ex-hardcore raiders to keep up with content without attempting to find a guild that fits in with our already overfilled schedules.

    • December 11, 2011 5:21 pm

      I think whether Raid Finder has a detrimental effect on traditional raiding guilds is completely on the shoulders of those guilds themselves. We have the power to decide which applicants we take in, and we owe it to ourselves and our guild members to weed out those people who are only interested in loot.

      This assumes that people who are using Raid Finder now are people who are looking to move into traditional raiding in the future. While I thought that would be the case when I first heard about this new system, now I kind of doubt it to be. I think it’s more likely that, after the traditional raiders get the loot they want, Raid Finder will mostly be a home for people who like to raid but don’t have the time to dedicate to a consistent team, people who purely want to experience the content, and people looking for one last bit of gear beyond what they can get from 5 mans. Those are probably not players who are looking to make the move to a raiding guild.

  4. December 11, 2011 6:50 pm

    What an excellent post! I totally agree with your analogies here!

    All that i really have to say is that i really hate the way so many boss mechanics were dumbed down or completely removed in LFR version. Imagine trying to remember which abilities are unique to versions as LFR grows into future tiers as well.

    The first time Manners and I q’d for the second half of the raid this week, at Warmaster Blackhorn…. Of course for starters the encounter was started with less than a full raid and with zero discussion of strategy or even so much as a ready check. Naturally from our experience of clearing the raid the week before with our guild, we dutifully set about following mechanics, and realized too late that we were the only raid members soaking the huge purple swirly and died. We were IMMEDIATELY attacked by “you morons, you dont have to soak in LFR” (which is actually untrue, go ahead and try it) by at least half the raid (apparently they all abandoned their tank/heal/dps roles to furiously type out our stupidity) repeatedly. At first i was embarassed, then just plain furious that we were being harassed for doing right. So mad that i just left the raid midfight as both the raid and the ship were less than half alive.

    It’s a shame the tales i have after only just two weeks of LFR live, but at the same time i do regard it as a great way to gear up alts and such. But like you said, do i plan to keep q’ing up after i have certain pieces of loot? Heck no!!

    • December 11, 2011 11:31 pm

      Ugh, I feel your pain with Blackthorn. I had about 6 people from my guild go into a Raid Finder group together over the weekend, and we lost 4 of those people on Blackthorn. They tried to do what they knew was right – soak one of the barrages. Unfortunately, they were the only 4 who made it there on time, so they all died.

      And you’re right, you do absolutely still need to soak barrages on Raid Finder difficulty. You can let the smaller blasts through, and even 1 or 2 missed barrages won’t kill the ship, but if you just let everything go through you will still lose the encounter.

  5. December 11, 2011 8:28 pm

    A small note of cognitive dissonance: random pugged BGs are usually BGs, and rated battlegrounds are rBGs or RBGs. It was a little strange for me reading this post and having to reverse my normal abbreviations.

    This in a great post, with a lot to digest. I’ve tried to not comment much on the LFR for a simple reason – I haven’t even tried it yet! – but you brought up PvP.

    I agree with a lot of what you said, and think that the analogy between LFR and the current state of random battlegrounds is apt. It shouldn’t be pursued exactly – there are some subtle but important differences – but I think it’s useful, and that’s all I really ask from my analogies.

    I don’t know if random battlegrounds really have value for rated PvP players. Like… I don’t think that there are valuable lessons to be taken from pugging WSG that will carry over to rated WSG. When you add in that there are only 8 battlegrounds to cycle through, you start to see that requiring a rated player to grind Honor in those battlegrounds is really nothing more than an entry grind. That’s all it is – 40-80 hours of battleground play so that you can be competitive in what you’d really like to do, which is rated BGs or Arena. You have to do this. There are no options, no bosses to loot, no BoEs, nothing. If you do not do this, you will be 1-2 tiers behind your opponent’s gear, and your rating WILL suffer. Which will cause you to gear up more slowly, which will make it harder to hit the rank you really want in the season.

    So let me ask a question I honestly don’t know the answer to: is LFR required for raiding, or a convenience for progression raiders? Does it represent the optimal path to getting the 4pc bonus, or the only path to it? If you showed up to normal DS wearing a mix of T12 and H-T12, will you be at a disadvantage compared to LFR T13?

    One thing I stress about PvP is that the difficulty is dynamic; it depends entirely upon your opponents. There’s nothing intrinsically more difficult about a rated BG with regards to the map or the rules of the game – it’s the organization and skill (and gear) of the opposing team which makes it easy or hard – with one exception. You cannot run a random battleground with your normal rated BG team. You can do it with your Arena team (and totally dominate), you can do partials, but you can’t queue more than 5 people from a group at the same time (without using addons.)

    LFR at least allows you the opportunity to faceroll with your normal raid roster. Something to consider.

    • December 11, 2011 11:25 pm

      Thanks for the tip about acronyms, Cyn. 🙂 I’ve fixed the post so that it should make a little more sense to those more familiar with PvP language than I am.

      Raid Finder has a very limited number of lessons available to be learned from a seasoned raider. Seeing a fight is important, in terms of knowing what to expect, and getting to see it in person rather than watching a strategy video is helpful. But is it necessary? Obviously not. I suppose the only way I can imagine BGs being a learning experience for a rated player are (perhaps) playing around with another class to figure out some weaknesses, or maybe messing around with terrain to find better positioning. (These are just wild guesses on my part, and both represent things that you really only need to experiment with once to get the hang of them, I’d think.)

      As to your question about 4 pc bonuses – it’s complicated. The short answer is no, running Raid Finder weekly is absolutely not the only path to getting your 4 pc. Yes, it is optimal. The problem is that the value of PvE 4 pc bonuses vary so widely between classes, specs, and tiers. I’m in a “lucky” spot at the moment because the resto druid 4 pc is absolute crap, so I don’t really need to worry about this aspect of the raiding grind. For some classes, particularly DPS and especially tanks, the 4 pc bonuses are extremely good for this tier.

      Yes, you can absolutely down every single boss on the normal mode of Dragon Soul without getting anything from Raid Finder. I know teams who have killed Deathwing on both 10 and 25 man raid settings who don’t have raiders wearing 4 pc T13 yet. But it’s not raid teams like mine that are going to be concerned about this. It’s not a question of whether you can down normal Deathwing with the gear you have coming out of Firelands – it’s whether you can down heroic Deathwing, and down him FIRST.

      I’ve talked about this a little in the past, but let me just reiterate that casual raiding guilds have very little in common with guilds who are in world-first contention. There’s a reason that Paragon took a risk and exploited a bug that they must surely have known could get them banned – they knew that 4 pc T13 could make or break their push to hit world first. My guild hasn’t begun work on heroics just yet, but I’m sure that the DPS requirements are steeper, and tanks having a raid wide cooldown they can use on demand (which is what every tanking spec gets with 4 pc T13) can really make a huge difference in heroic Dragon Soul fights. Could you probably do those fights without those things? Maybe. But you probably couldn’t do them first.

      So trying to translate those priorities to a casual raiding guild is, well, silly. But if that’s what your raid team wants to do (i.e. farm Raid Finder in hopes of getting 4 pc faster), then that’s what you’ll do if you’re a committed member of that raid team. No, you don’t NEED to, and arguing otherwise is fairly pointless. It’s a decision that each guild, and then each member of that guild must make – how much effort do I want to go to in order to stack the deck in my favor? If you’re a part of a raiding guild that says you MUST do these things and you don’t want to, then you need to find another guild.

      This is why, I think, a lot of more casual players who haven’t had much chance to raid before are somewhat resentful of the influx of traditional raiders to Raid Finder. In the end, we are kind of invading a space that’s not meant for us. Yes, we have reasons to be there right now to try to help ourselves get as far as we can as fast as we can in T13, but the truth is that anyone running normal difficulty raids is likely to replace Raid Finder gear in a month or so. We’re effectively taking gear from the people who won’t have a chance to replace it with anything better. The ethics of that are pretty interesting, and probably substantial enough for another post.

      I’ll hop down off my soapbox for now, since I think I’ve derailed myself enough in the process of answering your questions. You really hit the nail on the head with your point about only vs. optimal ways of gearing, and I appreciate the comment!

    • December 12, 2011 12:26 am

      Thank you! That was helpful and shed some light on the debate for me.

      One thing I would point out is that the PvE race is very much internalized pressure – pressure to be the world first, server first, etc. – but that the difficulty is against static content. Each group has control over how aggressively they chase after defeating that content.

      In PvP, the race is against other players, but the pressure is externalized – if you let other players get better geared than you, then your own difficulty increases. In some ways that’s why the gear restrictions are so heavy in PvP, and why these things are so important. And while you can choose to be more casual about the gear grind, it’s best if you do so in unrated play. Yet even there, you are still probably going to be facing players in better gear. So being casual carries the cost of sucking, even though you might know how to play the BG and your class very well.

      Also keep in mind that, unlike raids, you can play battlegrounds all they way to 85, there are only 8 maps total, and that the strategies and rules really don’t change very much as you go. Any given battleground is more interesting than any given dungeon … but after a while, they’re still pretty darn boring. While I don’t sit there and go, OH NO NOT EOTS again, I don’t sit and find it fascinating as a place to visit. I call WSG “The Office,” because I’ve spent so many games in there. The opponents make it interesting, not the location.

      Meanwhile, if I could never run UK again, I’d be a happy tank. 🙂

    • December 14, 2011 9:14 am

      I think the big difference between rated battlegrounds to randoms and normal raids to LFR is order of introduction. Random battlegrounds have been around for what feels like forever, and rateds feel like an evolution, a step up. As someone who mainly does rated battlegrounds these days, I have no problems doing randoms on my alts and still having fun – it’s a different league and that’s okay.

      In theory the same should apply to raiding, but I think the fact that LFR is the new big thing in town is going to make a difference in so far as it’s kind of being touted as an evolution from normal raiding when in fact it’s a step back. I believe that this will seriously confuse some people initially… clearly if they’ve completed “the newest thing” then they can take on anything? It remains to be seen whether perceptions will settle down over time.

    • December 14, 2011 8:04 pm

      Thanks for the great comment, Shintar. It’s really true that getting us used to the “lower” tier of battleground first before introducing something more coordinated is probably the most obvious different between that system and the new Raid Finder.

      On a side note, I really enjoyed (in kind of a bittersweet way) your latest post on your experience with killing Deathwing for the first time using the Raid Finder. I think that seeing content through Raid Finder is really a strange experience, both in terms of trying to understand the narrative that’s happening and because you’re lacking the same sense of camaraderie that you get when you go in with a group of friends or guildmates. I’ll include a link to your post here:

  6. Hawk permalink
    December 12, 2011 3:55 pm

    Right now, today, there’s a lot to ‘observe’ about LFR but it’s too early and difficult to come to any conclusions. In one sense, Blizzard threw this out there knowing very well that there would be future iterations on it if it found success. If I had to make a bet, I’d bet that when they sat down the first time to design the DS raid, Raid Finder wasn’t on their horizon or in their specifications. So in a sense LFR was possibly tacked on to the raid and not an integral part of the design.

    Once we see a few raids designed from the start with this in mind we’ll know more about intentions, how a 3-tier difficulty level will play out across 25m groups and the reality of what it can do with regard to providing a ‘raiding’ experience.

    This was a very risky giant bet for them so there’s no mystery about why they made it so easy; they wanted it to succeed and in a big way from day one. Once established and, concurrently, once people have gained experience with it, it wouldn’t be surprising to see them ramp it up a bit and eventually provide access to normal difficulty through it. That’s way down the road though.

    As an aside, this is my first visit. Nice post and my RSS reader, already groaning under the weight of the feed population, grows a little more. My wife is the druid healer in the family and she’ll get notice about it as well. Best regards.

    • December 12, 2011 5:48 pm

      You bring up a good point in terms of the experimental nature of this version of Raid Finder. Perhaps that explains some of the issues Squelchy and I feel in terms of the lack of a step up in difficulty for the normal 10 man version of the raid – Blizzard hasn’t yet found a “sweet spot” for the differences in difficulty for each of the three versions. Hopefully they’ll have a better idea of this by the time Mists rolls around.

      I’m glad you found your way here, and thank you for subscribing! I hope your wife finds something helpful here as well. 🙂

  7. AndurDC permalink
    December 13, 2011 11:08 am

    I think LFR succeeds in some areas but plainly fails in some others. Its greatest success is that it teaches people that, unless they follow the mechanics, they will be one shotted. Void zones in Morchok and Hagara come to my mind.

    On the other hand, I’m afraid that new people might think all raid groups are not very forgiving, especially towards DPS. Also, many of the raid leaders I’ve seen tend to belittle the whole raid group. The most clear example in my whole experience was a RL that kept refering to us all as “terribads”, and when explaining Hagara said “ok, this fight will separate the bads from the terribads”. I get disgusted by this kind of players. this is why I think its good you can do this in less than an hour. Also, I found that people are already calling it “looking for retards”. I don’t want to hang around this kind of players for too long. I only queue for LFR for the possible chance of upgrades and reaching VP caps.

    I think it comes to recruiters to make candidates understand that LFR is not how fights go in normal and hard modes. That progression is very different to this.

    • December 13, 2011 8:00 pm

      Yes, the behavior I’ve seen in a lot of Raid Finder groups is pretty disgusting. People are worse in there (generally) than in most 5 man groups, and I think that’s because it’s pretty easy to toss out insults at a large group of random strangers who are unlikely to call you on it because they’re just keeping their noses down and trying to get through the thing.

      I don’t know why people get so down on low DPS in Raid Finder – the enrage timers are amazingly forgiving. I’ve had extremely low DPS groups, and they can still kill the boss just fine even if it takes them a few minutes longer. As long as someone isn’t just melee swinging, I don’t really care whether they’re doing half as much DPS as the person who’s on top of the meters. Again, I just want to get the thing over and done with.

      I’ll agree with you about the “void zone” in the center of Hagara’s platform being a one-shot, but her ice walls certainly aren’t. And Morchok’s void zones actually take several ticks to kill a player – believe me, I’ve watched. There are very few one-shots on Raid Finder; even Ultraxion’s Hour of Twilight cast only deals about 60% of someone’s health if they fail to time Heroic Will correctly (or don’t bother to hit it at all).

  8. Bristal permalink
    December 20, 2011 11:09 pm

    Found this post from MMO melting pot and after my experience last night I had to respond. I raided minimally in Wrath, no bosses down since Ulduar.

    My guild collapsed and I soloed everything I could in Cata. Was never able to talk my way into a pug raid,TBH never tried that hard after getting shut down a few times.

    Enter LFR. Completing easy mode without having to beg or get stressed out trying to con my way into a pug gave me a huge amount of confidence. Got some great gear.

    Then last night I got into a PuG. A great group, and I was able to do very well. Suddenly I’m a raider again.

    Wouldn’t have happened without LFR.

    • December 21, 2011 5:37 pm

      Awesome! I’m so glad you’ve had a good experience with it, and thank you for sharing your story here. That’s a great example of what makes Raid Finder a very cool concept.


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